Crafter 2.0 TDI hot start - start & cut off

damug

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Halo there, i´m new here. So 1st a hallo @all.

I can´t find a solution for a Hot Star and Cut-Off problem on a 2012 Crafter 2.0 cktc from year 2012.

There is a fault code in ECU but after 3 times adjusting the timings i can´t believe its a problem whit it.
The fault is intermittent, only came up when car is warm, stand a short time and we want to start it again.

The first time we had this error in 2016, after we changed the timing belt, the water pump and the pulleys on 440 tkm.

The timings we adjusted 3 times after this without a change.

In end of 2016 we spend it a new G40 and cleaned the G28. This was a solution until last mouth, 09.2018.

Now the fault is back.

I do not understand why comes the fault up only when the car is warm? This connection is not clear to me.

Last week I mounted a new G40 original from VW, no solution.

The VCDS self-testings are all fine. The temp sensors are all fine.

Here some scans:

Adresse 01: Motorelektronik (03L 997 403 A)

16:00:18
035 Nockenwellenadaption Einlass Bank 1; Phasenlage -2.20 °
036 Nockenwellenlage; Ende Phasenfenster 257.41 °
037 Nockenwellenlage; Beginn Phasenfenster 128.36 °
038 Nockenwellen Flankenposition 0.00 °
039 Nockenwellendrehzahl 414.8 /min
076 Kurbelwellensignalauswertung; Status GAPFOUND
077 Kurbelwellendrehzahl 830.0 /min


4096 - Bank 1; Nockenwellenpos. (G40) / Kurbelwellenpos.sensor [G28]
P0016 00 [040] - falsche Zuordnung
Sporadisch - bestätigt - geprüft seit letzter Löschung
Umgebungsbedingungen:
Fehlerstatus: 00000001
Fehlerpriorität: 2
Fehlerhäufigkeit: 7
Kilometerstand: 504412 km
Datum: 2018.10.31
Zeit: 31:63:63

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0




Please help and hanks for your opinions
 

MickyF

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Finland, EU
Check all your related wiring and connectors, poor connections, and/or wiring can throw up error codes, ask me how I know.
 

damug

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Germany, Slovakia
1st, copied Keithuk´s answer from other thread I written ( https://www.volkswagenforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31724&p=108016#post108016 ).

Welcome to the forum.

Its nice to see you made an intro on your own after your other posts. :wink:

VAG Error Code: 16400/4096/000022
EOBD II Error Code: P0016

Fault Location:
Camshaft Position (Hall) Sensor (G40)/Engine Speed Sensor [G28], Bank 1 - Incorrect Correlation

Possible Cause:
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)(K83) active.

Timing Issue.
Camshaft Adjuster.
Timing belt jumped.
Timing chain has jumped tooth or chain stretched.

Possible Solutions:
Check Setting of Timing Belt.
Check Timing of Intake/Exhaust Cams.
Check Cam Adjusters as per Repair Manual.
Permissible deviation < -11° CRK or Permissible deviation > 11° CRK.

Special Notes:
North American Region (NAR) specific notes:
When found in 2009 Audi A4, A5 or Q5 with 3.2 FSI AVE Engines, please see Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) 15-09-04.
When found in 2008 and newer VW 2.0T engine with a timing chain (example; CCTA and CBFA), please see Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) 15-12-01 or Technical Product Information (TPI) 2028302 for no-start timing chain related problems.

Look at Cam Chain.

As taken from my new EOBD II Fault Codes Software

Thank you Keithuk.
Sorry, I forgot the Car has no variable adjuster or timing Cain, it´s a belt.
When the new belt we mounted in 2016 and checked already 3 times hasn't a factory fault (longer or a little shorter, i can´t believe) it must be good.
I would say there are many more possible causes like: Bad wiring, fault sensors G40 or G27, or maybe a bad indicator circle on clutch side of crankshaft...


I've just replied to your intro with English codes, where do you live?

Post moved to correct section. ;)

Hi Keithuk, oh this is also complicate, born in Germany living in Slovakia :)

Check all your related wiring and connectors, poor connections, and/or wiring can throw up error codes, ask me how I know.

Thank you Micky, I ll going to check the wiring for G28 and G40 and reply.
 
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damug

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Hallo,

a short feedback, the sensor wires are good.

I dismounted the turbocharger, egr and throttle. The turbocharger was pushing oil in the suction so today I replaced it, the egr valve was covered sooty but works, also the throttle.
Tomorrow I going to mount new timing belt pulleys and idler, also get a look at the injectors, new seals.

After that I write again
 

damug

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Ok cool, keep us posted.

So, all the fixes aren't the right.
The timings are new, the injectors ok, the wiring are checked and ok, temperature sensor changed, crank sensor and camshaft sensor changed...

After ending the service today i driven the car for checking, after stop there was again the cut off.
Made some Logging. I can´t understand how the crank can show up 950 rounds and the cam only 380...and ... and after cut off the camshaft continues to run :confused:

Log1.jpg
I tested various combinations in various logs, temperature, pressure, without finding a value which is always the same or out of range in the cut off moment.
Can´t upload the file the log has a .csv ending.
 
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damug

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Hi @ all, i studied the Log another time.
At idle, after successful start of the engine, when accelerating, the crankshaft is faster than the camshaft (1000/450). And when I go off the pedal, the revolutions of the crankshaft are lower les the expected (950/500).

Any idea?
 

damug

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Another one Hallo,

I yesterday logged a Passat 3C5 whit similar 2.0 TDI (CBDC) to compare.
It is possible the Starter cranks sometimes if hot slower then else???


At the start I do not feel that, but the line at the Crafter in the VC-Scope makes a small kink on end of starter rpm and the Passat goes straight up.
 

CAPTAINF

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So, all the fixes aren't the right.
The timings are new, the injectors ok, the wiring are checked and ok, temperature sensor changed, crank sensor and camshaft sensor changed...

After ending the service today i driven the car for checking, after stop there was again the cut off.
Made some Logging. I can´t understand how the crank can show up 950 rounds and the cam only 380...and ... and after cut off the camshaft continues to run :confused:

View attachment 6385
I tested various combinations in various logs, temperature, pressure, without finding a value which is always the same or out of range in the cut off moment.
Can´t upload the file the log has a .csv ending.

Hi, I'm not a mechanic, but are you sure that the timing is right, I think a guy on here bought a timing kit from a well known auction site that was faulty. I bought a 2016 Crafter earlier this year that had the timing belt kit replaced at time of purchase, there was an initial fault code relating to the auxilliary water pump but this was cleared and the van was fine for 10K miles but then I had the hot starting problem. The first garage (part of the group that I bought the van from) I took it to diagnosed a timing issue but claimed not to have the tools to repair it. I then took it to one of their bigger centres that said the camshaft sensor was the issue and replaced it. The van has been ok since. Good luck !
 

damug

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Hello CaptainF, yes I'm sure. The timings are good.

The last weak we changed the g40. After that the car was not start at all. I found a lot of bad wiring for G40, EGR, Throttle valve and Pressuresensor.
So we yesterday changed the motor main wiring.

Fault now came up from lower temperature 30C. The Log of cranking rpm now goes straight up like on the passat.
But it still sometimes cuts off.

In made a new Log whit EGR and Throttle. The Throttlevalve at miss start goes down but it should be open...
I´m not sure if this is a reaction to the P0016 but if it´s reaction why only the live line goes down but not the Log-Line of required value?

Here the new Log: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AssBuhZd84TuhYhbRmivzA1gunchsQ
 

CAPTAINF

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Sorry, I'm not a mechanic, you might have to pose the question to one of the experts on here. My Crafter hot starting issue was resolved after replacing the camshaft sensor. Good luck !
 

damug

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Waiting now for oscilloscope.


I'm thinking about problems with the MCU.

The 1st possibility is:
Cold always stars up prompt.. i mean there is a table in EDC17 MCU where is a different amount of fuel at cold and hot start. But down´t know from witch sensor the mcu takes data for temp.
Tried to check this possibility but its not enough just plug off the G12.

2nd possibility:
Isn´t there a table which starting the car few minus after shutting down like the data from last stop?
Tried to check this possibility getting of the mass cable from batty after shutting off the car, 2 times worked 3th time not.



Merry Christmas @ all :)
 

damug

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I forgot this until today a message.
Here is the solution:

The timings was set whit cam and crank tools but it was a wrong cam/crankshaft assignment.
The fix was go out whit the cam 3 degrees forward.
But I never understood why the tools couldn't set it right.

After this the engine worked fine for 50,000 km.
It died in August after the crankshaft wound up a thread of the V-belt. This allowed the crankshaft to rotate freely ...
 

MikeCZ

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I forgot this until today a message.
Here is the solution:

The timings was set whit cam and crank tools but it was a wrong cam/crankshaft assignment.
The fix was go out whit the cam 3 degrees forward.
But I never understood why the tools couldn't set it right.

After this the engine worked fine for 50,000 km.
It died in August after the crankshaft wound up a thread of the V-belt. This allowed the crankshaft to rotate freely ...
I have read your story, because I´m facing exactly the same symptom, also the same fault code in VCDS (2.0 liter TDI CR engine)
So, may I understand that your engine crashed due to the broken V-belt when engine was running? Or?
 

CAPTAINF

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I have read your story, because I´m facing exactly the same symptom, also the same fault code in VCDS (2.0 liter TDI CR engine)
So, may I understand that your engine crashed due to the broken V-belt when engine was running? Or?
Is it a hot starting issue that you have?
Have you changed the camshaft sensor?
If mileage is high the Crafters are also prone to wearing the flat on the inside of the crankshaft sprocket which throws the timing out.
CORRECTION: crankshaft sprocket not camshaft. I had part number 03P105263A (CKT engine code) changed on mine which solved the issue.
I have also seen mention of the trigger wheel on the rear crankshaft seal causing a similar problem.
 
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